Discussion:
Of course Russia can be in NATO..!
(too old to reply)
ESLaPorte
2004-04-02 14:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Of course Russia can be in NATO, and there is no real reason why is cannot
be. The North Atlantic Treaty is not an anti-Russian treaty and Russia can
be a party to the Treaty.

But that decision is up to Russia. Beyond the current state of Russian
democracy, there is the purely psychological need to end the Cold War in the
minds of Russians and NATO leaders, including includes NATO member
governmental leaders. Russia must apply for NATO membership and fulfill the
same requirements that other Eastern European nations. however, this Author
suspects that the psychological end of the Cold War has yet to take place,
and that will not happen unless there is discussion of NATO membership for
Russia.

Another psychological factor among the new NATO members are the Baltic
nations, whose leaders appear to have very Cold War-like reasons to be in
NATO in the first place. There is the real possibility that the ghosts of
the Cold War will haunt NATO once again, if the mentalities of the Baltic
NATO members are not managed. the Cold War phobias of the Baltics have
already cost our Alliance in assets, such as radar systems and fighter jets,
deployed to the Baltics in a provocative move toward our friend Russia. This
is wrong - and can cost our Alliance assets that can be better deployed in
the efforts against terrorism. We need to guard against any return to the
Cold War by managing the Baltics Cold War phobias.

The door to NATO membership is open to Russia. This was the same statement
last year from then SecGen, Lord George Robertson. On this day, when new
members are becoming NATO members, the global new media will, with deep
misunderstanding about NATO's Treaty, write about the "Russian reaction" and
"calming Russia." What we should be talking about is the future of NATO with
Russia as a full NATO member, not "managing the Russian reaction!"

---
See also this Author's paper: "Putting the Cold War Ghosts to rest - an
argument IN FAVOR of Russian NATO membership."
http://transatlantic.security.pronato.com/Russia-NATO/Russian.NATO.membership1.htm


Erin LaPorte
The NATO Citizen - www.pronato.com
P.O. Box 371162
Milwaukee, Wisconsin - USA
"Long live the entangling Alliance!"
"Long live NATO!"
53237-2062
ESLaPorte
2004-04-03 00:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Oh my - guess this is just to high of a level for those of you who have not
had an new thought in you head since 1991..

You are still brain washed to believe:
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"

Wrongo! - Russia is not the enemy of NATO!
Russia will someday be in NATO!!!
Post by ESLaPorte
See also this Author's paper: "Putting the Cold War Ghosts to rest - an
argument IN FAVOR of Russian NATO membership."
http://transatlantic.security.pronato.com/Russia-NATO/Russian.NATO.membership1.htm
Post by ESLaPorte
Erin LaPorte
The NATO Citizen - www.pronato.com
P.O. Box 371162
Milwaukee, Wisconsin - USA
"Long live the entangling Alliance!"
"Long live NATO!"
53237-2062
kalmenas
2004-04-04 06:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by ESLaPorte
Oh my - guess this is just to high of a level for those of you who have not
had an new thought in you head since 1991..
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
"Russia is the enemy of NATO"
Wrongo! - Russia is not the enemy of NATO!
Russia will someday be in NATO!!!
.

This discussion is off to the usual repetetive
(and uninteresting) string of insults.
Lets get back a little to realism. La Porte
in his first post outlined the theoretical requirements for
Russia to be accepted, it must show that it shares
'common values'. That is democracy, respect for the
individual and rule of law, protection of minorities.
Can Russia achieve this? Theoretically yes,
there are those in this post who will argue vehemently
no.
I personally hope that Russia at least will move
in that direction. To the great benefit of Russians and its
neighbors, however, it will not get it into NATO.

NATO is an association protecting the teritorial
integrity of its members. First and formost. Everything
else is window dressing.

Consider - Russia has a border of ~4000 km with
China, ~3000 km with Moslim nations. (Let the
geographers correct this, a few thousand km won't change
the picture),

Will the existing members take upon themselves the
burden to protect such borders? Will they willingly a) reduce
their own level of protection b) greatly increase defense
costs if the level is to be maintained?

No colective group has ever in history made such
a decision. None will.
Kalmenas





.
Thomas Hensley
2004-04-04 13:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by kalmenas
Will the existing members take upon themselves the
burden to protect such borders? Will they willingly a) reduce
their own level of protection b) greatly increase defense
costs if the level is to be maintained?
That's what they just did actually. That bridge has been crossed.
Post by kalmenas
No colective group has ever in history made such
a decision. None will.
Kalmenas
Sure they will, to secure a close supply of energy supplies.
Post by kalmenas
.
kalmenas
2004-04-04 18:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Hensley
Post by kalmenas
Will the existing members take upon themselves the
burden to protect such borders? Will they willingly a) reduce
their own level of protection b) greatly increase defense
costs if the level is to be maintained?
That's what they just did actually. That bridge has been crossed.
Wrong. A look at the map will show you that the boarders
to be defended are extended only marginally. Actually an
internal gap has been closed, the teritory to be defended
has been consolidated. Furthermore, the new partners have
proven themselves to be more reliable then some of the old.
Post by Thomas Hensley
Post by kalmenas
No colective group has ever in history made such
a decision. None will.
Kalmenas
Sure they will, to secure a close supply of energy supplies.
That is an argument. However, even providing the
will ever existed I do not think the price can be met. Will
Lithuania ever agree to increase its expenditures to protect
Russia? Will Germany? Will Poland, or Spain etc?
Its a pipe dream.
Kalmenas
Post by Thomas Hensley
Post by kalmenas
.
ESLaPorte
2004-04-04 15:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by kalmenas
This discussion is off to the usual repetetive
(and uninteresting) string of insults.
The point of that was to demonistate that automatic, knee-jerk, falling back
on the stereotype that "Russia is the enemy of NATO."
To state that Russia is the enmey of NATO is to cling to Cold War thinking
and stereotypes. This can also religate our NATO Alliance to the Cold War
past. Those of us who are NATO supporters should be working on removing the
old stereotypes that "Russia is the enemy of NATO." Those of us who support
NATO should be insulted by the notions on this newsgroup that "Russia is the
enemy of NATO." It was Soviet communism - not Russians as people - that was
the Cold War enemy of NATO. Also offensive to myself as a NATO supporter are
the anti-Russian notions attacked to what is "pro-NATO" on this newsgroup!

Also - NATO is not "anti-" anything and our NATO does not seek to define any
group or nation as "the enemy." Currently, al-Qaeda and international
terrorism is the "enemy," and this is due to the attack on the US on
September 11, 2001 and the invocation of Article Five from the terrorist
attack. Musilms, like Russians, are not the "enemies of NATO." NATO does
not keep "an enemy list," and this is relected in the positive-oriented
statement from the North Atlantic Treaty itself "...their desire to live in
peace with all peoples and all governments" and the intent of Article One.
Post by kalmenas
Lets get back a little to realism. La Porte
in his first post outlined the theoretical requirements for
Russia to be accepted, it must show that it shares
'common values'. That is democracy, respect for the
individual and rule of law, protection of minorities.
Can Russia achieve this? Theoretically yes,
there are those in this post who will argue vehemently
no.
Even the two main proponents of Russian NATO membership (Ira Straus and Mark
Kramer) agree that Russia has a long way to go, but that does not mean that
it is hopeless to work toward that goal. From the excerpt from my paper, I
demonstrate that the idea of Russian NATO membership, like that of Germany
in the early 1950's is not a fringe idea. Yes - Russia has a way to go - but
it should be encouraged to drop the Cold War stereotypes (as they should in
other Eastern European countries) and work toward NATO membership.

But that NATO, as well as Russia, should work on getting there. In case you
do not know, the relations between Russia and NATO are actually very
excellent. The Russia-NATO Council is part of the evolution that will
eventually lead to Russia as a full NATO member - no matter how long that
takes. It close to 50 years to defeat Soviet communism and liberate Eastern
Europe, including the liberation of the Russian people from communism.
Post by kalmenas
I personally hope that Russia at least will move
in that direction. To the great benefit of Russians and its
neighbors, however, it will not get it into NATO.
NATO is an association protecting the teritorial
integrity of its members. First and formost. Everything
else is window dressing.
What would keep Russia out of NATO when it qualifies for membership? The
need to cling to Cold War stereotypes?
There is nothing that would keep Russia from becoming a NATO member when it
qualifies!

The truth is that Russia as a NATO member, as well as Serbia, is the future
of the NATO Alliance. The past that our Alliance is leaving behind is
"Russia as the enemy of NATO." With each new instrument and policy
innovation in the NATO- Russia relationship draws Russia to eventual NATO
membership...
Even the statements from NATO/Western leaders indicate that NATO membership
for Russia IS NOT out of the question!

Again from from former SecGen Lord Robertson:
"NATO is open for Russia as well, and Russia can submit an application form.
There are no fundamental obstacles in the way for Russia joining NATO. It is
up to Russia to apply or not apply for membership. And if Russia is ready to
meet the standards...it can join the alliance" -- Lord George Robertson.
"NATO chief says no obstacles in way of Russia's membership of alliance."
Financial Times/BBC Monitoring. December 9th, 2002.
Post by kalmenas
Consider - Russia has a border of ~4000 km with
China, ~3000 km with Moslim nations. (Let the
geographers correct this, a few thousand km won't change
the picture),
Will the existing members take upon themselves the
burden to protect such borders? Will they willingly a) reduce
their own level of protection b) greatly increase defense
costs if the level is to be maintained?
As Ira Straus presents in his paper, the moving of NATO boarders to China
would have the same effect of extending NATO's boarders to Mexico. "Russia
in NATO: The Fourth Generation of the Atlantic Alliance." December 1994.
Available from http://www.fas.org/man/nato/ceern/rus_in.htm

Actually - extending NATO boarders to China would be politically better that
just along the boarders between the Baltics and Russia, which is now having
the effect of bringing the Cold War back our NATO Alliance! This is also
causing Eastern Europeans to redefine NATO (incorrectly) as an
"anti-Russian" alliance, which it is not. To start the Cold War up along the
boarder between the Baltics and Russia is counterproductive and can distract
our Alliance form REAL threats from terrorism.

The fact that NATO survives, despite alliance theory, is a first. That is
due to the fact that NATO is not just a millitary alliance, but an alliance
of democracies based on more than just arms, armies and military defense.
Excerpt from "Putting the Cold War Ghosts to rest - an argument IN FAVOR of
Russian NATO membership."
http://transatlantic.security.pronato.com/Russia-NATO/Russian.NATO.membership1.htm

After a year of existence, Russia-NATO Council was touted in the Russian
newspapers as a very substantial high mark in Russian-NATO relations, but
more cooperation needs to be undertaken. The Secretary-General of NATO, Lord
Robertson called the achievements of the RNC "very substantial" in the areas
of assessment of terrorist threats and cooperation on a theatre anti-missile
defense system (Agency WPS, 16 May 2003). The NRC replaced the Permanent
Joint Council (PJC) that was designed to keep Russia at a "safe distance."
The PJC was a forum to inform Russia of agreements that the Allies arrived
at in advance and lacked a spirit of cooperation between Russia and NATO of
this new Russia-NATO Council (Fritch 2002). Now, a frequently used phrase
from President Bush is that Russia is now America's "friend and ally" in
especially the war on terrorism and in the aftermath of the September 11
attacks on America - and NATO - new spirit of cooperation was noted through
shared intelligence and aid in Afghanistan. (Lansford 2002). An added bonus
of the Russia-NATO Council was the softening of the Russian position toward
NATO enlargement and less of the perceived need by NATO members that the
Russian "concerns and fears" (Baltic News Service, 5 July 2002) needed
"management." The NRC was described a two-way street in the NATO-Russia
relationship and thus far is describe as a success in Russia - NATO
cooperation.

The Bush Administration remained non-committal to the promise of full NATO
membership for Russia. However, after the September 11 terrorist attacks a
new, deeper level of cooperation followed between NATO and Russia. White
House spokesman Ari Fleischer stated that the deeper relationship was not
the administration's endorsement of NATO membership for Russia. Fleischer
stated that the new Russia-NATO Council was a major step toward "integrating
Russia with the European-Atlantic community of nations and this is a garden
that will be watered and now will grow" (Associated Press, 15 May 2002). The
relationship between Russia and NATO has been a "garden that has been
growing" since the end of the Cold War.

If the US were to press toward a goal of NATO enlargement to include Russia,
the first step would have to be directed toward the former Soviet block
countries, especially the Baltics. They would have to overcome their
suspicions in their aversion to a closer relationship with Russia. What need
to be worked out and over come are the persistent notions of "imperialist
Russia," which do have some historical truth to them (O'Sullivan 2003). NATO
membership could be used as a vehicle to facilitate and instill trust
between the Baltic states and Russia. A NATO that includes Russia would help
reign in the real or perceived Russian penchant for "imperialist Russia."
The facilitation of cooperation would be productive in putting Russia's
imperialist past behind it, just as NATO membership is now used to gain
trust and cooperation between Greece and Turkey. And the lack of wars in
Europe and the integration of Germany back into Europe have been credited to
the NATO Alliance (Kay 1998). And - what would keep a new and deep
relationship of respect and dignity between Russia and its former "Yalta
clients" through the North Atlantic Council from developing?

According to David Yost (1998), the officially stated goals for countries to
strive for NATO membership - stabilization and democratization - have no
grounds for excluding Russia. NATO expansion that locks out Russia would be
seen by most Russians as a national humiliation, incite nationalism and
appear to confine and isolate Russia. While he was Secretary-General of
NATO, Javier Solana stated that to make NATO a "closed shop" would confine,
without hope of integrating into the anchor of the West and would "imprison
those countries to their pasts" and "it would rob them of the best means of
moving them forward" (Yost 1998, 146). A Russia eternally excluded from NATO
would also imprison NATO in the Cold War past, as well as redraw lines
across Eastern Europe.

References in excerpt:

Agency WPS. "Russia and NATO - Antagonists or Partners?" 16 May 2003.

Fritch, Paul. "Analysis: New Beginnings." NATO Review. Summer 2002.

Baltic News Service. "US Senator: Improved Russia-NATO relations have
softened Moscow's stance on NATO enlargement." 5 July 2002.

O'Sullivan, John. "The Great Game in Europe: How the US can play." National
Review. 24 February 2003, Vol. 55, Issue 3.

Yost, David S. NATO Transformed The Alliance's New Roles in International
Security. United States Institute of Peace: Washington, D.C., 1998.

Kay, Sean. NATO and the Future of European Security. Rowman and Littlefield
Publishers: Boston, MA, 1998.

Gedda, George. "U.S. welcomes closer Russian ties with NATO but holds back
on promising full membership." Associated Press, 15 May 2002.

Lansford, Tom. 2002. All for One: Terrorism, NATO and the United States.
Ashgate Publications Company: Burlington, VT.
«Pas de deux»
2004-04-04 15:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Listen, you idiot, have you ever been to the Baltic States? Have you ever talked to anyone who had their family killed or deported to Siberia in the 1940s? Or been beaten up by Russian mafiosi in more recent times? Do you know anything about the dirty tricks the Russians are palying to subvert the Baltic States?
You are a Yankee idiot sitting on your fat fanny drinking Schlitz and pontificating about things you know nothing about.

GK

~~~~
Post by ESLaPorte
Post by kalmenas
This discussion is off to the usual repetetive
(and uninteresting) string of insults.
The point of that was to demonistate that automatic, knee-jerk, falling back
on the stereotype that "Russia is the enemy of NATO."
To state that Russia is the enmey of NATO is to cling to Cold War thinking
and stereotypes. This can also religate our NATO Alliance to the Cold War
past. Those of us who are NATO supporters should be working on removing the
old stereotypes that "Russia is the enemy of NATO." Those of us who support
NATO should be insulted by the notions on this newsgroup that "Russia is the
enemy of NATO." It was Soviet communism - not Russians as people - that was
the Cold War enemy of NATO. Also offensive to myself as a NATO supporter are
the anti-Russian notions attacked to what is "pro-NATO" on this newsgroup!
Also - NATO is not "anti-" anything and our NATO does not seek to define any
group or nation as "the enemy." Currently, al-Qaeda and international
terrorism is the "enemy," and this is due to the attack on the US on
September 11, 2001 and the invocation of Article Five from the terrorist
attack. Musilms, like Russians, are not the "enemies of NATO." NATO does
not keep "an enemy list," and this is relected in the positive-oriented
statement from the North Atlantic Treaty itself "...their desire to live in
peace with all peoples and all governments" and the intent of Article One.
Post by kalmenas
Lets get back a little to realism. La Porte
in his first post outlined the theoretical requirements for
Russia to be accepted, it must show that it shares
'common values'. That is democracy, respect for the
individual and rule of law, protection of minorities.
Can Russia achieve this? Theoretically yes,
there are those in this post who will argue vehemently
no.
Even the two main proponents of Russian NATO membership (Ira Straus and Mark
Kramer) agree that Russia has a long way to go, but that does not mean that
it is hopeless to work toward that goal. From the excerpt from my paper, I
demonstrate that the idea of Russian NATO membership, like that of Germany
in the early 1950's is not a fringe idea. Yes - Russia has a way to go - but
it should be encouraged to drop the Cold War stereotypes (as they should in
other Eastern European countries) and work toward NATO membership.
But that NATO, as well as Russia, should work on getting there. In case you
do not know, the relations between Russia and NATO are actually very
excellent. The Russia-NATO Council is part of the evolution that will
eventually lead to Russia as a full NATO member - no matter how long that
takes. It close to 50 years to defeat Soviet communism and liberate Eastern
Europe, including the liberation of the Russian people from communism.
Post by kalmenas
I personally hope that Russia at least will move
in that direction. To the great benefit of Russians and its
neighbors, however, it will not get it into NATO.
NATO is an association protecting the teritorial
integrity of its members. First and formost. Everything
else is window dressing.
What would keep Russia out of NATO when it qualifies for membership? The
need to cling to Cold War stereotypes?
There is nothing that would keep Russia from becoming a NATO member when it
qualifies!
The truth is that Russia as a NATO member, as well as Serbia, is the future
of the NATO Alliance. The past that our Alliance is leaving behind is
"Russia as the enemy of NATO." With each new instrument and policy
innovation in the NATO- Russia relationship draws Russia to eventual NATO
membership...
Even the statements from NATO/Western leaders indicate that NATO membership
for Russia IS NOT out of the question!
"NATO is open for Russia as well, and Russia can submit an application form.
There are no fundamental obstacles in the way for Russia joining NATO. It is
up to Russia to apply or not apply for membership. And if Russia is ready to
meet the standards...it can join the alliance" -- Lord George Robertson.
"NATO chief says no obstacles in way of Russia's membership of alliance."
Financial Times/BBC Monitoring. December 9th, 2002.
Post by kalmenas
Consider - Russia has a border of ~4000 km with
China, ~3000 km with Moslim nations. (Let the
geographers correct this, a few thousand km won't change
the picture),
Will the existing members take upon themselves the
burden to protect such borders? Will they willingly a) reduce
their own level of protection b) greatly increase defense
costs if the level is to be maintained?
As Ira Straus presents in his paper, the moving of NATO boarders to China
would have the same effect of extending NATO's boarders to Mexico. "Russia
in NATO: The Fourth Generation of the Atlantic Alliance." December 1994.
Available from http://www.fas.org/man/nato/ceern/rus_in.htm
Actually - extending NATO boarders to China would be politically better that
just along the boarders between the Baltics and Russia, which is now having
the effect of bringing the Cold War back our NATO Alliance! This is also
causing Eastern Europeans to redefine NATO (incorrectly) as an
"anti-Russian" alliance, which it is not. To start the Cold War up along the
boarder between the Baltics and Russia is counterproductive and can distract
our Alliance form REAL threats from terrorism.
The fact that NATO survives, despite alliance theory, is a first. That is
due to the fact that NATO is not just a millitary alliance, but an alliance
of democracies based on more than just arms, armies and military defense.
Excerpt from "Putting the Cold War Ghosts to rest - an argument IN FAVOR of
Russian NATO membership."
http://transatlantic.security.pronato.com/Russia-NATO/Russian.NATO.membership1.htm
After a year of existence, Russia-NATO Council was touted in the Russian
newspapers as a very substantial high mark in Russian-NATO relations, but
more cooperation needs to be undertaken. The Secretary-General of NATO, Lord
Robertson called the achievements of the RNC "very substantial" in the areas
of assessment of terrorist threats and cooperation on a theatre anti-missile
defense system (Agency WPS, 16 May 2003). The NRC replaced the Permanent
Joint Council (PJC) that was designed to keep Russia at a "safe distance."
The PJC was a forum to inform Russia of agreements that the Allies arrived
at in advance and lacked a spirit of cooperation between Russia and NATO of
this new Russia-NATO Council (Fritch 2002). Now, a frequently used phrase
from President Bush is that Russia is now America's "friend and ally" in
especially the war on terrorism and in the aftermath of the September 11
attacks on America - and NATO - new spirit of cooperation was noted through
shared intelligence and aid in Afghanistan. (Lansford 2002). An added bonus
of the Russia-NATO Council was the softening of the Russian position toward
NATO enlargement and less of the perceived need by NATO members that the
Russian "concerns and fears" (Baltic News Service, 5 July 2002) needed
"management." The NRC was described a two-way street in the NATO-Russia
relationship and thus far is describe as a success in Russia - NATO
cooperation.
The Bush Administration remained non-committal to the promise of full NATO
membership for Russia. However, after the September 11 terrorist attacks a
new, deeper level of cooperation followed between NATO and Russia. White
House spokesman Ari Fleischer stated that the deeper relationship was not
the administration's endorsement of NATO membership for Russia. Fleischer
stated that the new Russia-NATO Council was a major step toward "integrating
Russia with the European-Atlantic community of nations and this is a garden
that will be watered and now will grow" (Associated Press, 15 May 2002). The
relationship between Russia and NATO has been a "garden that has been
growing" since the end of the Cold War.
If the US were to press toward a goal of NATO enlargement to include Russia,
the first step would have to be directed toward the former Soviet block
countries, especially the Baltics. They would have to overcome their
suspicions in their aversion to a closer relationship with Russia. What need
to be worked out and over come are the persistent notions of "imperialist
Russia," which do have some historical truth to them (O'Sullivan 2003). NATO
membership could be used as a vehicle to facilitate and instill trust
between the Baltic states and Russia. A NATO that includes Russia would help
reign in the real or perceived Russian penchant for "imperialist Russia."
The facilitation of cooperation would be productive in putting Russia's
imperialist past behind it, just as NATO membership is now used to gain
trust and cooperation between Greece and Turkey. And the lack of wars in
Europe and the integration of Germany back into Europe have been credited to
the NATO Alliance (Kay 1998). And - what would keep a new and deep
relationship of respect and dignity between Russia and its former "Yalta
clients" through the North Atlantic Council from developing?
According to David Yost (1998), the officially stated goals for countries to
strive for NATO membership - stabilization and democratization - have no
grounds for excluding Russia. NATO expansion that locks out Russia would be
seen by most Russians as a national humiliation, incite nationalism and
appear to confine and isolate Russia. While he was Secretary-General of
NATO, Javier Solana stated that to make NATO a "closed shop" would confine,
without hope of integrating into the anchor of the West and would "imprison
those countries to their pasts" and "it would rob them of the best means of
moving them forward" (Yost 1998, 146). A Russia eternally excluded from NATO
would also imprison NATO in the Cold War past, as well as redraw lines
across Eastern Europe.
Agency WPS. "Russia and NATO - Antagonists or Partners?" 16 May 2003.
Fritch, Paul. "Analysis: New Beginnings." NATO Review. Summer 2002.
Baltic News Service. "US Senator: Improved Russia-NATO relations have
softened Moscow's stance on NATO enlargement." 5 July 2002.
O'Sullivan, John. "The Great Game in Europe: How the US can play." National
Review. 24 February 2003, Vol. 55, Issue 3.
Yost, David S. NATO Transformed The Alliance's New Roles in International
Security. United States Institute of Peace: Washington, D.C., 1998.
Kay, Sean. NATO and the Future of European Security. Rowman and Littlefield
Publishers: Boston, MA, 1998.
Gedda, George. "U.S. welcomes closer Russian ties with NATO but holds back
on promising full membership." Associated Press, 15 May 2002.
Lansford, Tom. 2002. All for One: Terrorism, NATO and the United States.
Ashgate Publications Company: Burlington, VT.
ESLaPorte
2004-04-05 00:37:10 UTC
Permalink
"�Pas de deux�" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:%4Wbc.757$***@news20.bellglobal.com...
Listen, you idiot, have you ever been to the Baltic States? Have you ever
talked to anyone who had their family killed or deported to Siberia in the
1940s? Or been beaten up by Russian mafiosi in more recent times? Do you
know anything about the dirty tricks the Russians are palying to subvert the
Baltic States?
You are a Yankee idiot sitting on your fat fanny drinking Schlitz and
pontificating about things you know nothing about.

GK

~~~~
Oh yes - I know about the "russification policies" and the deportations.
People in Russia also where shipped to the labor camps. Soviet communism -
communism in general - is a highly evil system, and I'm very glad that we
defeated it and liberated Eastern Europe!

I know people involved in Atlantic Councils (NATO realted organizations) in
the Baltics. Many Baltic youth involved in Atlantic associations are highly
intelligent young people that are involved in the mainly the Youth Atlantic
Treaty association and these bright young people are going to make good
leaders of the Alliance someday. Good for them!

That said, NATO membership is about peaceful relations, not negative revenge
policies. NATO membership could also be used to get reconciliation for the
past injustices of "russification" policies of the so-called "near-abroad."

Also, I don't drink beer anymore, as it has too many calories and
carbohydroates..!
ESLaPorte
2004-04-05 14:19:53 UTC
Permalink
The level of this poster's intelligence can be demonstrated by the notion
that I "must be Russian" by default. And your hate for Russians is also very
much contrary to the values that our NATO Alliance defends, as well as
contrary to NATO policy. I'm not Russian, nor Slavic, but even if I was,
having pro-NATO Russians is a good thing, not a bad thing!
Post by ESLaPorte
Post by ESLaPorte
The point of that was to demonistate that automatic, knee-jerk,
falling back
Post by ESLaPorte
on the stereotype that "Russia is the enemy of NATO."
It is. NATO was founded to counter russian aggression.
It is too bad that Chechnya was not a NATO member.
NATO is not "anti-Russian" - but it was anti -Soviet communism!
NATO Treaty was founded to counter both SOVIET AGGRESSION, as well as to be
the foundations for an Atlantic Community...
There IS a difference between the Russians as a group of people and Soviet
communism!

NATO does not define ANY group of people or nation as "the enemy!"
You insult our NATO Alliance and its leaders by stating that they are
"anti-Russian" and hate groups of people because of who they are..!
I 've met a couple of those leaders, including Jamie Shea, and they do not
hate anyone, but would like to see positive, peaceful relations between NATO
and all nations, including Russia!

Also - NATO and its Treaty were created and defined in positive terms. I
highly doubt that you have even sat down are read the North Atlantic Treaty.
I have not only read it - but studied it. Please try to learn what you're
talking about ...

I have researched the foundations of NATO and written about it for several
years. I am in touch with people and professors who are involved in NATO and
transatlantic affairs. I have actually attended events with NATO leaders.
There is NO ONE involved in NATO that defines Russians, Serbs, Muslims, or
anyone else as "the enemy." I know a professor (my mentor) who actually knew
Ted Achilles and Clarence Streit - but you probable do not even know who Ted
Achilles was do you?

*** Tell me who Ted Achilles was? Hummmm?! ***

*** Can you tell me about the "Omaha milkman" and how it related to the
creation of the North Atlantic Treaty?! ***

To continue to state that "Russia is the enemy of NATO" is to believe
something that is wrong, without foundation, and even offensive to the NATO
Alliance and the principles and purposes of the North Atlantic Treaty. Your
anti-Russian mentality is an insult to our NATO Alliance!

Now if you want to seriously read about the true purposes of NATO and NATO's
new mission in the post-Cold War world, I would be happy to indulge you in
that reality without insulting you. And that invitation is open to all on
these newsgroups. If you want to have an intelligent discussion about NATO
without insults or racist stereotypes - I can do that!

I will no long answer posts from posters who engage in stereotypes, laced
with bigotry, and who appear to engage in Cold War rehash. Those who
especially fail to come to the reality that the Cold War has been over for a
decade, that Russia is not the enemy of NATO, and that even insult our NATO
Alliance by failing to acknowledge that its new mission is countering
terrorism and fluid threats of the post Cold War age!

I will not engage posters who do not follow MODERN and CURRENT policy and
activities of our NATO Alliance!

You need to first get a life and start here -

NATO's website-
www.nato.int

The Prague Summit one year on: the NRF, NATO's transformation and
decision-making process.
http://terrorism.pronato.com/NATO.NRF.terrorism.htm

NATO - Russia relations: A new quality
http://www.nato.int/issues/nato-russia/index.html

The NRF's website:
http://www.afnorth.nato.int/NRF/index.htm
Post by ESLaPorte
Post by ESLaPorte
To state that Russia is the enmey of NATO is to cling to Cold War
thinking
Post by ESLaPorte
and stereotypes.
Reality is good. Indulge in it more often, La Porte.
Seeing that russia is currently partnered with red china in a new
Stragetic Alliance to militarily counter the US (read trans-atlantic)
and *our eastern european* interests , it becomes obvious that the
'old' cold-war... never ended.
Uno Hu
Do not dare call yourself a NATO supporter! You are no NATO supporter and do
not DARE call youself one! The NATO Alliance itself has declaired the Cold
War over - and has adapted itself to the new reality of international
terrorism and taking on missions, such as in Afghanistan.

Another one of those people who knows nothing about NATO and its true
purposes!

Another one of those people who does not follow the CURRENT doings of our
NATO Alliance.

Another one of those people who needs to come out of the cave that he's been
in since before 1989!

Reality is that NATO is not - and never was - an "anti-Russian" alliance.

Reality is that it was Soviet communism that was the Cold War enemy of the
NATO Alliance!

Reality is that the Cold War is OVER and our NATO Alliance is a partner with
Russia!

Reality is that our NATO Alliance has adapted for the new threats of the
post Cold War world!

And the reason why you are stuck in the Cold War could very well be due to
what appears to be a refusal to READ and LEARN about the CURRENT - post
1991 - state of NATO security and transatlantic affairs...
--
Erin LaPorte
The NATO Citizen - www.pronato.com
"Long live the entangling Alliance!"

PS - for those who want to discuss and learn about NATO - its post Cold War
roles - and the prospect of future roles and missions, such as the NRF,
Afghanistan and Iraq, and more, we can do this open-mindedly and without
insults! We can discuss in private e-mails, on an e-list (I manage several
pro-NATO lists) or a message board.
vienalga_man
2004-04-03 09:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by ESLaPorte
Of course Russia can be in NATO, and there is no real reason why is cannot
be. The North Atlantic Treaty is not an anti-Russian treaty and Russia can
be a party to the Treaty.
...
NATO is anti-Russian. That's why all of Russia's neighbours mean to
join. All of Russia's neighbours are anti-Russian. There may be
reasons for this, produced over the centuries.
Russia doesn't join.
...
Post by ESLaPorte
But that decision is up to Russia. Beyond the current state of Russian
democracy, there is the purely psychological need to end the Cold War in the
minds of Russians and NATO leaders, including includes NATO member
governmental leaders. Russia must apply for NATO membership and fulfill the
same requirements that other Eastern European nations. however, this Author
suspects that the psychological end of the Cold War has yet to take place,
and that will not happen unless there is discussion of NATO membership for
Russia.
Who cares what this author thinks? Who cares what the Russians think?
Get civilised, according to Western rules and apply to join just as
Bulgaria did.
Then we'll ask how Chechen detainees are doing in your jails. You'll
join Civilisation when we say you can.
Post by ESLaPorte
Another psychological factor among the new NATO members are the Baltic
nations, whose leaders appear to have very Cold War-like reasons to be in
NATO in the first place.
...
The Cold-War reasons are very, very good.
Post by ESLaPorte
The door to NATO membership is open to Russia.
...

Not really. Start learning Mandarin.
Or finally understand what Europe means.
Post by ESLaPorte
Erin LaPorte
The NATO Citizen - www.pronato.com
...

R.
ESLaPorte
2004-04-03 16:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by vienalga_man
...
NATO is anti-Russian. That's why all of Russia's neighbours mean to
join. All of Russia's neighbours are anti-Russian. There may be
reasons for this, produced over the centuries.
Russia doesn't join.
Oh boy! Here we go again with the same old Cold War and "Russia is the enemy
of NATO" outdated, Cold War stereotypical, mindless thinking...ho -hum!!!
Another mindless recital of Lord Ismay too on the way?!

So - once again - NO - NATO is not anti-Russian and was not intended to be
anti-Russian. It was anti-Soviet communism. Does the Soviet Union still
exist? Nope!

Not only do scholars like Ira Straus and Mark Kramer believe that Russia
belongs in NATO, but Kramer states that there is no reason to keep Russia
out of NATO when it qualifies for membership. Kramer states that NATO should
work with a willing Russian government for NATO membership :

"[T]he prosepect of eventual Russian membership is something that NATO
should publicly and strongly encourage. What this means in the near term is
that NATO should encourage Russia to aspire to membership in the alliance
and should...work with the Russian government to carry out reforms..." ---
Mark Kramer - "NATO, the Baltic states and Russia: a framework for
sustainable enlargement," International Affairs, October 2002. Vol. 78 Issue
4, 731-756.

Also, the past SecGen, Lord George Robertson stated that the door for NATO
membership for Russia remains open:
"NATO is open for Russia as well, and Russia can submit an application form.
There are no fundamental obstacles in the way for Russia joining NATO. It is
up to Russia to apply or not apply for membership. And if Russia is ready to
meet the standards...it can join the alliance" -- Lord George Robertson.
"NATO chief says no obstacles in way of Russia's membership of alliance."
Financial Times/BBC Monitoring. December 9th, 2002.

We should work with Russia to overcome the penchant for imperialism and the
notion of having dominating its neighbors. Also, the psychological legacy of
the centuries old "Mongol yoke" needs to be overcome...

I have great faith that NATO can help Russians to overcome these
tendencies...
Post by vienalga_man
...
Post by ESLaPorte
But that decision is up to Russia. Beyond the current state of Russian
democracy, there is the purely psychological need to end the Cold War in the
minds of Russians and NATO leaders, including includes NATO member
governmental leaders. Russia must apply for NATO membership and fulfill the
same requirements that other Eastern European nations. however, this Author
suspects that the psychological end of the Cold War has yet to take place,
and that will not happen unless there is discussion of NATO membership for
Russia.
Who cares what this author thinks? Who cares what the Russians think?
Get civilised, according to Western rules and apply to join just as
Bulgaria did.
Then we'll ask how Chechen detainees are doing in your jails. You'll
join Civilisation when we say you can.
You? "Your jails?!"

You act as if I'm Russian! By default?

First, I'm an American. Second, I am true blue Anglo-American of British
Isles heritage! "My people" are the "Western" and North Atlantic
civilization that you refer to as "civilized!!!" We did give the world
modern, liberal democracy...and the NATO Alliance too.

And, even if I was Russia, or Serbian (I'm not Slavic at all...), it is a
good thing for our Alliance to have pro-NATO Russians and pro-NATO Serbs (as
many as possible!) who want to work toward their nation's association and
membership in our Alliance!

Also, the Alliance and Russia are working together to fight international
terrorism. If there are groups that go around blowing up hospitals and
taking whole theaters hostage that are full of innocent people - that is
terrorism! Our Alliance is working with Russia to help fight the scourge of
terrorism, and this IS important to help keep weapons of mass destruction
out of the hands of terrorists..!
Post by vienalga_man
Post by ESLaPorte
Another psychological factor among the new NATO members are the Baltic
nations, whose leaders appear to have very Cold War-like reasons to be in
NATO in the first place.
...
The Cold-War reasons are very, very good.
THE COLD WAR IS OVER DAMNIT!!!

The Cold War is long over and NATO is no longer a "Cold War alliance." To
state that the "Cold War is good" is to remain in locked in the box of the
Cold War mentality. You cannot honestly be pro-NATO and following CURRENT
events and doings of NATO too seriously say that! To believe that the Cold
War is still going on is to state that our NATO Alliance IS irrelevant - --
as the Cold War has been over for will over a decade.

If you are pro-NATO you cannot still have the "Cold War NATO" mentality, as
then it follows that NATO is irrelevant, as the Cold War IS OVER and the
"Soviet Russia enemy" no longer exists!!! You also deny that our NATO
Alliance has adapted and you religate it to the Cold War role forever..!

Our NATO Alliance has adapted for the new threats, not from Russia, but from
terrorism.
The "Cold War NATO" no longer exists!!!
Post by vienalga_man
Post by ESLaPorte
The door to NATO membership is open to Russia.
...
Not really. Start learning Mandarin.
Or finally understand what Europe means.
Europe is, for the most part pro-NATO, espically our good Allies in Poland
and the Czech Republic. Also, the European Rapid Reaction Force is
establishing interoperability with NATO's Response Force.

Transatlantic cooperation is vital to fight terrorism - and this includes a
good realtionship with Russia!
Post by vienalga_man
Post by ESLaPorte
Erin LaPorte
The NATO Citizen - www.pronato.com
...
R.
Cheers,

Erin LaPorte
The NATO Citizen - www.pronato.com
Milwaukee, Wisconsin - USA
"Long live the entangling Alliance!"
"Long live NATO!"
Vidas
2004-04-06 01:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by ESLaPorte
Post by vienalga_man
...
NATO is anti-Russian. That's why all of Russia's neighbours mean to
join. All of Russia's neighbours are anti-Russian. There may be
reasons for this, produced over the centuries.
Russia doesn't join.
Oh boy! Here we go again with the same old Cold War and "Russia is the enemy
of NATO" outdated, Cold War stereotypical, mindless thinking...ho -hum!!!
Another mindless recital of Lord Ismay too on the way?!
Almost 400 years of on again off again occupation can do that to you.
I agree with Gintas' sentiment. Who are you to tell us how we should
feel today ?

Making sure one doesnt relive history is hardly a mindless exercize.
Post by ESLaPorte
So - once again - NO - NATO is not anti-Russian and was not intended to be
anti-Russian. It was anti-Soviet communism. Does the Soviet Union still
exist? Nope!
NATO wasnt anti soviet communism. NATO wasnt formed to battle
ideology. NATO was formed to counter the spread of soviet aggression
and repression - executed via the application of military might. The
soviet response was the Warsaw Pact - also hardly an ideological
entity...
Post by ESLaPorte
Not only do scholars like Ira Straus and Mark Kramer believe that Russia
belongs in NATO, but Kramer states that there is no reason to keep Russia
out of NATO when it qualifies for membership. Kramer states that NATO should
The key here being "when russia qualifies". I believe you'll find a
significant number of scholars who can effectively argue that Russia
will likely never qualify for NATO membership.
Post by ESLaPorte
We should work with Russia to overcome the penchant for imperialism and the
notion of having dominating its neighbors. Also, the psychological legacy of
the centuries old "Mongol yoke" needs to be overcome...
The statement "work with Russia to overcome" implies that its penchant
for imperialism and dominating of neighbors still exists.

It in fact does and I'm sure a good number of posters here can point
out various instances where Russia continues to exert pressure (not
necessarily military in nature) on its neighbors to influence internal
economic and political conditions to this day.
Post by ESLaPorte
I have great faith that NATO can help Russians to overcome these
tendencies...
Faith is good. Reality is that NATO wont ever change anyones nature or
outlook in the way you hope.
Post by ESLaPorte
Also, the Alliance and Russia are working together to fight international
terrorism. If there are groups that go around blowing up hospitals and
taking whole theaters hostage that are full of innocent people - that is
terrorism! Our Alliance is working with Russia to help fight the scourge of
terrorism, and this IS important to help keep weapons of mass destruction
out of the hands of terrorists..!
Hehe... And where exactly would you go in the world if you were in the
market to buy such arms ? Hint...RPG and AK's arent being manufactured
in Milwaukee.
Post by ESLaPorte
THE COLD WAR IS OVER DAMNIT!!!
Easy Cartman... The cold war isnt over. It's just taken on a new form.
Broader more diverse list of "enemies".
Post by ESLaPorte
The Cold War is long over and NATO is no longer a "Cold War alliance." To
state that the "Cold War is good" is to remain in locked in the box of the
Cold War mentality. You cannot honestly be pro-NATO and following CURRENT
events and doings of NATO too seriously say that! To believe that the Cold
War is still going on is to state that our NATO Alliance IS irrelevant - --
as the Cold War has been over for will over a decade.
No, I think if the cold war was truly over then the NATO alliance
would be irrelevant. The nations that joined recently didnt do so that
they could sew those cool blue patches on their uniforms. These
nations joined because NATO offers a security alliance that better
positions them against traditional threats. Otherwise, why join ?
Post by ESLaPorte
If you are pro-NATO you cannot still have the "Cold War NATO" mentality, as
then it follows that NATO is irrelevant, as the Cold War IS OVER and the
"Soviet Russia enemy" no longer exists!!! You also deny that our NATO
Alliance has adapted and you religate it to the Cold War role forever..!
Our NATO Alliance has adapted for the new threats, not from Russia, but from
terrorism.
The "Cold War NATO" no longer exists!!!
Thats different. The cold war centric NATO doesnt truly exist as it
once did. But NATO's need to evolve and tranform to some degree does
not mean that traditional sources of military threat and
destabilization have miraculously disappeared as you seem to believe.

Vidas

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